The Motivated Student Chat, Part V

bob: Hi, everyone. Lots to discuss tonight, including how we can keep things going and

 tell our colleagues about internal motivation and how to engage kids to be successful in

 school.

Steve G.: hi Bob

Nat: Good evening everyone

bob: Most people think that we act ant THEN we feel...or we feel and THEN we act.

 This is about how the components work together.

Steve G.: It seems like a lot of this is related to brain research, no? That kids who know

 something about their brains are better able to control their feelings?

bob: absolutely. i'd just add that it applies equally to adults.

bob: most adults think their feelings "happen" to them. they'll say things like "i can't

 choose how to feel but i can choose how to act."

bob: in truth, we have much more control over how we feel as well as our physiology

 than people believe.

Steve G.: I think the question I had with the chapter and the area was how do you

 find time -- to go through this self-reflective exercise?

Steve G.: There's hardly any time in the day.

bob: it gets into the whole area of responsibility. most of us don't want to be

 responsible for our anger or any other uncomfortable emotional state, but the

 concept of total behavior informs us that we have considerable control

bob: help me, steve. what part seems time-intensive to you? doing the total behavior

 chart with students?

Steve G.: Yes, I mean between the standards we have to teach to, it seems like I'm

 always struggling to find "time"

bob: i think it gets into how we "invest" time, spending it on this exercise i believe will

 both buy you time and lead to greater achievement.

Nat: Can this be an activity done with the students, making them apart of it all?

Steve G.: You're right. Better to start thinking of this as one thing, rather than

 separate. Sorry

bob: the other thing your comment brings up, steve, relates to the topic of the next

 chapter. i think we spread ourselves too thin with such a broad curriculum. it leads to

 the exact comment you made: where's the time???

Nat: focusing on power standards, indicators - whatever you want to call them - we

 need to identify the essential standards, the others fall within the essential

 standards

Steve G.: The big word at our school is always capacity.

bob: yes, nat. in fact, in chapter 12 i have the scenario of an elementary teacher

 doing this with a class. it doesn't need to take more then 10-15 minutes and sets the

 foundation for a successful unit.

Nat: That is exactly how we function in my district - from my personal experience it

 has definately lightened the load

bob: i think it's "essential to identify what's essential"!

Nat: It gives you a focus, a goal to work towards with your students

bob: i'm not trying to be negative, but most of the content we teach kids is not

 crucial! much of what we teach will be outdated in just a few years...but...the

 process of how we learn and certain facts, content are all essential.

bob: and by "lighening the load," you'll provide time for your kids to reflect, process,

 make meaning and deepen their learning.

Nat: I agree, when we identified power standards for 8th grade social studies we

 found that really there were less than 15 essential standards, the rest were

 extensions of the 15

bob: too much of what we do is done on a surface level because as steve says

 "where's the time." by narrowing what we teach, we can teach deeply.

Nat: As Larry Ainsworth told me, think of it as a fence the post are the essential

 (power standards) and the rungs are the other standards. go deeper not wider.

Steve G.: When we talk about narrowing of curriculum, do you find it's best done

 within small committees who write it and agree? Is it a go-it-alone thing?

Marcy: I would just like to add while you are talking about K-12 - I have student

 interns who are struggling with feeling powerless and it is not just about Standards

Nat: Absolutely - it was time consuming at first, but now in our 3rd year it is definately

 less work

bob: hi marcy!

bob: steve, i think it needs to be done in a collaborative way. what do others think?

bob: how did you do it in your school nat?

Marcy: Hi, Bob.  I think i am following this but it is still driving me crazy. I types up

 answers to yiour question because I thought I might be able to cut and paste - NOT

Nat: we incorporated it as a distrct through our data team process

bob: and who was involved? teachers?

bob: i guess i have difficulty with things "imposed" from above, even if they are good!

 involving teachers in a meaningful way leads to more ownership.

Steve G.: So content-specific specialists in each subject area?

Marcy: Nat, how big is your district and how do you know what you have dopne is

 working

bob: nat, can you offer a synopsis of the process so others can get a feel for it?

Nat: yes by grade level dept

Marcy: How do you know what you are doing is making a difference?

Carolyn, ASCD Moderator: @Guests, you can change your nickname by clicking 'edit

 nickname" in the lower left corner of the chat window.

Nat: You look for what is a standard has longevity, needed for the next grade level,

 and what was needed past high school

Steve G.: And has everyone agreed that narrowing is better? I tend to think it is, but

 also know people think we should cover everything!

bob: great question, marcy. and not as "simple" as it seems. scores going up is good

 data. but...teachers feeling more involved and valued and staff morale improving

 may be as important.

Marcy: Yes, that is what i was wonderinh - How are they collecting that information?

Nat: Teachers need to use the data to help them guide how they teach and develop

 their instruction around what they are learning about their students

bob: steve, are these people comfortable with sacrificing depth in an effort to offer a

 wider curriculum? (There may be times when i agree, by the way. there's nothing

 wrong with survey courses.)

bob: so nat, is the instruction in your district really data driven? if so, it sounds

 impressive.

Marcy: NAT, if you have time to respond, in what ways are the teachers collecting

 data? Portfolios?

Steve G.: Yeah, I think covering "more" of something, say, the details of the

 American revolution, is always looked at more favorably.

Nat: yes at least for my data team - I can't speak for all - it is the goal for all

bob: and, nat, what about marcy's question? how is data collected. operating on data

 sounds great but it needs to be valid, useful data or it's a house of cards.

Nat: forative assessment, pre/post, things like that

Marcy: I am not asking any more questions of poor  Nat!

Nat: I meant formative sorry

bob: i'm loving this! this is what i wanted: people sharing what they have tried, etc...

 thanks nat!

Marcy: Do students complete a performance assessment (as in UbD?

Nat: yes they do

Marcy: Do you look at then across your grade level team?

Nat: we are a dept, we are not in teams

Marcy: OK. I missed that - waht is your dept?

Nat: 8th grade social studies

bob: nat, i'm curious. clearly you are enthusiastic about this. it represents a new way

 of conceptualizing teaching. are your colleagues equally enthusiastic?

Nat: honestly not really, but I spent a year studying data teams and this process for

 my dissertation...and brought my team to exemplary status

bob: see, the people in this chat represent a minority. my goal is to discover ways to

 help others become equally engaged, enthusiastic, and willing to try new things to

 benefit kids.

bob: this is really interesting, nat. i'm "hearing" you say that you were able to achieve

 real success even without complete enthusiasm/support.

Nat: a few teams with my help are moving in that direction

bob: i'm convinced that once people see success, they are more willing to get

 involved. it's getting the momentum going that's the key component.

Nat: yes my team has a well at least 1 in every building in our district. It is a slow

 process usually takes 5 years to really see the benefit of data, powerstandards, and

 collaboration

bob: any other comments about "teaching less...teaching deeply" before we move

 on?

Nat: Definately Bob, I have many request to sit in and help other teams move

 towards what my colleagues and I have discovered - we have taken it to extremes

 we team teach all 90 of our students 3 to 4 times a week

bob: the other issue i'd like to chat about relates to the final chapter of "The

 Motivated Student." creating your own professional identity.

bob: congratulations on your success nat! stories like these are very helpful for me to

 hear.

Nat: I love to tell them, good and bad

bob: so here's the "heavy" part of the discussion. the philosophical part. what exactly

 do you want from yourself as an educator?

Steve G.: I'd like to know I'm making a difference.

Steve G.: Sometimes I wonder

Nat: me too

bob: i was reading an article today that suggested adults work primarily for money. i

 think we work to satisfy other needs....like making a difference.

Nat: I believe we are steve, we just don't always see it right away

Nat: I agree Bob, i changed careers to go into education - I was making more money

 in business but I wasn't happy - something was missing

bob: i have a great story about how we are sometimes clueless about the difference

 we make. it's from my book "The Inspiring Teacher." I'll put it on the "Inspiring

 Student Motivation" wall later tonight or tomorrow.

Steve G.: Yes, I was going to say, I don't make enough money to be moved by it. ;-)

bob: i think all teachers want to make a difference. do you agree?

bob: as steve says, we don't make enough to be doing it solely for the money.

Nat: yes, but sometimes they loose sight of it due to life.

Steve G.: I know some people who do it frankly, because they didn't what else to do.

 Sorry to say that. Know it's not PC

Carolyn, ASCD Moderator: @Sarah, Guests, what say you?

bob: so here's the question: how do we keep ourselves focused on how important our

 jobs really are? how do we not get stuck in the "how do I survive 6th period?"

 syndrome???

Steve G.: Maybe it's bad, but I try to focus on that one child that I can move at a

 time.

Steve G.: If I can help one kid at a time learn something a little more.

bob: steve, i'd love to disagree with you, but i suspect you are right. but even those

 teachers still want to feel good about themselves. as dan pink says in "Drive," we all

 seek a sense of purpose. (I relate it to the need for power/competence.)

Steve G.: Don't get me wrong. I teach the whole class.

Nat: We celebrate the little things, the kid who moved from an F to a D, stuff like that

Steve G.: Exactly nat.

Nat: We had a round of applauce today for the student who finally passed a test this

 year.

bob: are there other areas that are important to you all, separate from academic

 achievement?

Marcy: I have been teaching a long time and iI think that our successes go beyond

 'academic achievement.

Steve G.: I think I also tend to learn new things each year. Because I go back and

 don't do the same thing every year

Nat: Learning - I love to learn new ways to teach and then try them out on my

 students, get their feelings and either keep or toss it depending on the overall

 outcome

bob: i do a number of parent workshops and i'm the parent of three. i wanted my kids

 to be successful in school but academic success was never the most important thing

 for me.

Steve G.: At the end of the day, we really don't do enough to teach kids how to be

 citizens. That's important too

bob: all of your comments support my belief that we are internally motivated. you

 could take out the same lessons from last year. but we are driven to create, to

 improve what's already good.

Marcy: In my life as at teacher, I cherish the times when my students have said  _ i

 want to be atecaher like you.

bob: as an educator, i was always more concerned about helping children learn to be

 good people (with a good education) - than in just getting the highest test score.

Nat: Marcy I enjoy when they come back to me and thank me for not letting them

 slack or get away with not working...they tend to appreciate my style after the fact

bob: as i said to my own kids on numerous occasions, "When i was dating your

 mother, i never once asked to see her transcript."

Steve G.: It's like sports. Teach them how to win, fine. But teach them

 sportsmanship. that's more important

Marcy: What keeps me teaching?  It is not the test scores (but I am in Canada)

Steve G.: It has to be better than the U.S. Marcy!

bob: nat, your "after the fact" comment is so important. it's naive to think that kids

 will necessarily have the capacity (that word again, steve!) to see the value of what

 you are doing at that moment.

Marcy: Nat, yes. I love when they come back to visit. in fact my own child siad the

 same thing to me about 'not letting her slack off''

Nat: test scores only provide me with data that helps me guide my instruction to

 assure my students are getting the best education possible

Marcy: Steve, yes it is - i have taught in both worlds!

Nat: as well as the areas they might need more instruction on

bob: so "the best education possible" can't be neatly encapsulated in a test score!

 that's why i am such an advocate for the ASCD whole child initiative.

Marcy: Nat, yes. I use scores, but they do not 'drive' my teaching - maybe guide it

 (ha-ha)

bob: it's crucial to understand that academics are the foundation. but we're helping to

 build a whole child and i want to go well beyond the foundation

Steve G.: Bob, I'm curious, when you were an administrator, what was the biggest

 challenge facing the school?

Nat: I agree Bob

Steve G.: I guess, what was the situation etc.

Marcy: I also love the Whole Child initiative - you can't learn much when you are

 hungry and scared.  School does offer shelter

bob: i think our school/district was too complacent. we weren't "bad." but i never felt

 a sense of urgency in getting a whole lot better.

Steve G.: Was it a poor neighborhood, etc.? Suburb?

bob: it's why i love doing what i do now: staff development. my identified role is to

 bring these ideas up for discussion and help teachers/schools move forward and

 become better than we are.

Steve G.: How do you get a school to get that drive to be better when things what

 one my colleagues called "good enough"?

bob: i worked in plymouth, masss (home of the pilgrims) for my whole career.

bob: i think it's like what nat has done. start slowly. have some success with a small

 group. let the momentum build. and be patient because things of value take time and

 are worth pursuing.

Steve G.: I know we talked about this before but about getting people on board for

 change. That seems the toughest part.

Nat: They do change, I am currently working with 3 other teams in my building, I have

 helped our science teams identify their power standards, and I am a trainer for

 identifying power standards an creating formative assessments for my district

bob: I hope those who participated in this chat will keep things going. Any interest in

 starting a book study in your school?  Other ideas to help our colleagues learn?

bob: Iím planning on getting a blog up and running soon. If you get me your e-mail

 info, Iíll be certain to let you know when I get it started. You can contact me through

 my website: internalmotivation.net

Nat: Steve it is, I will not lie to you and there are days when I just want to throw in

 the towel, then I look at my students and see what my colleagues and I have done

 and I am back in business

Steve G.: I'm definitely going to reach out to colleagues to discuss some of this stuff

 for sure

bob: I also wanted to let you know that I have a FREE quarterly newsletter. Next one

 due in June. Contact me at internalmotivation.net and ask to be put on the mailing

 list. You can then print & share articles. Together we can make a difference!

Nat: I already share with my colleagues - many just blow me off - they think I am

 crazy to still be teaching in a middle school after getting my Ed. D degree this past

 fall.

bob: it's so easy to get discouraged. that's why i think it's important to support each

 other and find others who agree with what we have been talking about.

Marcy: Now, Nat, just don't listen to them. I love coaching in middle school - they are

 crazy but wonderful!

Steve G.: Marcy, i have a question for you. Do you find teachers are more valued in

 Canada than here?

Steve G.: in the U.S., I mean.

Steve G.: I don't know if you're in Candada

Marcy: Yes.

bob: i've read before that teachers reflect the developmental level of the kids they

 teach. so ms teachers are like ms kids!

bob: yes, what? marcy. more valued in canada???

Nat: I agree for many of my colleagues - for myself I am that geek in the corner.

Marcy: To clarify - My husband and I  immigrated to Canada - iIam teaching here both

 at the university and coaching in schools - (writing)

Steve G.: I read a story the other day about a chinese teacher here in the U.S. She

 talked about how the Chinese value teachers more.

bob: sure, but the geek inthe corner is often interesting. a bit scary because he's

 different. so we'll pretend to dismiss him. but privately, he gets us thinking.

Steve G.: But once taught in Asia a long time ago.

Nat: Bob I hope so.

Steve G.: And the truth is,they pay lip service to it, but it's not really respect. The

 kids still mock the teacher etc.

Steve G.: Parents still curse them out.

Marcy: This is such a funny conversation - never having done this bvefore and as a

 writing teacher, I think it is funny how our conversations weave back and forth.

Nat: I have never had a parent curse me out, I don't know how I woudl handle that

bob: i wonder if teachers in the US feel less valued because of the "grass is always

 greener" thing. or is it cultural in the fact that americans are very comfortable

 expressing displeasure. other cultures are less likely to do that.

Marcy: good poin t Bob

Nat: Bob, I think you have a point, isn't human nature to think that it is better

 somewhere else

Steve G.: Yeah, Nat, I've seen it.

bob: don't know if it's "human nature" or "human nurture" but it's pretty common.

Steve G.: Of course, I've seen it here too.

Marcy: Nat, yes, but culture are different in Canada - people do have a high respect

 for teachers

bob: my daughter lives in australia. her boyfriend is a high school history teacher. he

 can complain about the lack of respect he sometimes feels. so i think it crosses

 borders.

Nat: Well everyone I have to go, I have definately enjoyed chatting and hope to

 correspond with all of you again. Take care.

Steve G.: Bye Nat

bob: this reminds me of a quote i have from "Activating the Desire to Learn." In fact i

 think i put it on my website this morning....

Marcy: I teach in a rural area. all I am saying is may be  cultural too

Steve G.: Marcy, honestly, I was just curious.

bob: it's about deciding to be a respectful person because that's who you want to be,

 rather than being respectful to those who "deserve" it or "earn" it...

bob: take care nat. thanks for your thoughtful comments!

bob: it's so easy to choose anger and frustration if we are not respected. i decided a

 long timer ago that i will act the ay i want to be regardless of how i am treated. it

 keeps me from being a victim.

bob: Thanks to Carolyn and Tim at ASCD for all the time and effort they put into this

 and for giving us an opportunity to share and discuss how to engage and inspire

 student motivation. Without their support, this wouldnít have been possible. Thanks

Tim: Great job Bob. Thanks for joining eeryone.

Marcy: I am going to dinner, Bob and colleagues. it was fun rambling with you.

bob: good night everyone and thanks again for all of your comments and

 participation. I've enjoyed it!

Carolyn, ASCD Moderator: Thanks to everyone who followed the chat every week!

Steve G.: Bye Marcy

Steve G.: thanks Bob

Carolyn, ASCD Moderator: Welcome everyone.  Bob should be here shortly

bob: Good evening, everyone

Steve G.: Hi Bob

bob: here's the thing: eveyone wants a "good relationship" with kids. Questions: are

 good relationships "necessary" or just "nice"

bob: and....how do YOU define a good relationship.

Steve G.: I guess I had a question...

Steve G.: You talk about the surprise when that teacher didn't say she "liked" the

 students.

Steve G.: I guess my question would be do you have to "like" your students in order

 to teach them?

Nat: I do not think you have to like all your students, I think you have to learn to

 understand them and appreciate them for who they are

bob: i'm turning the tables on you, steve. do you think you need to like kids to teach

 them?

Steve G.: And what I mean by that -- sometimes at least I think, in order to teach

 kids, it's not about liking them so much as wanting the best for them.

guest903353: I agree

Steve G.: And helping them see a way, if they aren't so great as people, to get

 there.

guest903353: bob it's me shelley....still only here as a guest but i guess this is better

 than last week

bob: is "wanting the best for them" part of "liking them"? or are those two concepts

 completely independent

bob: welcome, shelley! you can change the nickname at the bottom if you want.

shelley: thanks

shelley: it worked!

Nat: I think they are connected to a point, what I mean is even if a student which I

 know I have had is not the most likeable, I still want to do what I can to help him/her

 develop into productive members of society

bob: i think there's a subtle but important difference between "liking kids" and always

 "liking" what they are doing.!

Nat: I agree

shelley: absolutely

bob: the teacher I refer to in ch 7 simply didn't seem to like kids much. period. it

 wasn't just that she sometimes found them annoying (that's true for most of us

bob: her thing was a deeper "disconnect"

bob: so switching it to that more general "liking kids"....is that essential?

bob: i believe it's essentail and say as much on p. 74

bob: it doesn't mean you'll become a great teacher, but if you are in love with your

 subject but don't like kids, i think you're doomed to a ceiling of mediocity. what do

 you all think?

shelley: I think what is essentiial is that you do that best that you can to teach and

 reach every kid......regardless if you truly like them or not

Steve G.: I think you are right on the one hand in terms of the way the teacher was

 inconsistent in her behavior -- she liked the kids when they behaved.

Steve G.: I think she had to be more even.

bob: exactly. her behavior was very "conditional" that's going to get you into a lot of

 uncomfortable situations when working with kids.

bob: on p. 75 I say "while good teachers don't condone off-task behavior, they never

 let (it) erode a positive working relationship."

Steve G.: You get into a ton of uncomfortable situations.

bob: equally true in the role of parent!

Steve G.: But I wonder if it's about "liking" the kids in her case. Did she seem like she

 wanted the best for them?

bob: so i'm still interested in your one-sentence definition of a "good relationship"

Steve G.: In other words, was it her attitude or was it her approach?

Nat: I think she liked and respected them for who they were

bob: i'm pretty certain she wanted the best for them. i think her "error" was that she

 thought that was enough and she didn't even consider developing a positive

 connection with kids

shelley: yes, sometimes you don't like what they are doing.....the choices that they

 are making........but you still like them.....just not some of ltheir choices

bob: maybe it can be reduced to her "approach." that would be nice because that

 puts it on a "behavioral" level and not a "values" level

bob: absolutely, shelley. there are times when we don't like the choice. but it doesn't

 change the fact that we honor and like kids

Nat: I agree

Steve G.: I agree too, that in order for her to be successful she needs a positive

 connection.

bob: i keep asking about your definition of a "good relationship" because I think we

 use language loosely sometimes and erroneously believe that others mean the same

 thing when we use the same language.

shelley: and sometimes......as i understand so well, it can be difficult to seperate the

 two.....but we must

bob: it's not especially important for us in this chat, but if we worked together in the

 same school, it would be helpful if we had a common definition of a "good

 relationship?

shelley: It is necessary to make a conscious effort to do this

Nat: A good relationship with my students means that even if i am dissapointed in

 their action, the know the next day is a nw one

bob: shelley and i were in a "live" book chat e couple of hours ago and we talked a lot

 about the importance of being conscious and intentional in all we do.

shelley: true , each day is a new dawn and a new beginning

bob: thanks, nat.

shelley: yes respect, but trust as well

bob: respect is one of those "wonderful" words. do you and the students share the

 same definition of respect?

Nat: my students know i care about them regardless and there are days the tell me

 the hate me - my response is that is ok i still like you

shelley: your students must trust you and believe in you as you need to of them

Steve G.: Probably not. ††††††††††††††

bob: i've seen lots of behavior that i perceived as disrespectful and the kids had

 completely different perceptions.

Nat: mutual respect i believe is important

shelley: very tru Bob

Nat: absolutely bob - i see it daily in the 6th grade

bob: i endorse the idea of "mutual" but i always tell kids i will respect them and be

 honest with them regardless of how they choose to be with me.

Nat: absolutely

bob: kind of like nat telling kids he likes them regardless of what they say.

shelley: yes, since there is only one person that you can control......lol

bob: and i will not allow myself to be put into the victim box and being less honest

 than i want to be simply because someone else chooses to be less honest with me.

shelley: agrred

Nat: at first the don't believe me but when i prove to the through my actions the

 develope the respect that we believe the should have

shelley: most definitely agree with you Nat

bob: great point, nat. it DOES take time. but through actions you can develop the

 trust that builds positive working relationships

bob: chapter 8 is about relevance. talk about that. important? no big deal?

bob: the teacher in that chapter (Trish) is very intentional about creating relevant

 lessons. but some of her colleagues think it's "coddling" kids. what do you think?

Steve G.: There's no doubt it's important.

Steve G.: I think if you look at any brain research.

bob: this gets us into the area of "role." is it part of my job to create relevant

 lessons?

shelley: well, I think that when you show kids the "connect" and purpose for what

 they are doing, the particiapation and intereswt goes way up

Steve G.: It's not about coddling it's about what gets through to long-term memory

Nat: Shelley I agree.

bob: this is probably the absolute worst group to be asking! but...if it's so important,

 why do you think many teachers bristle at the suggestion that we create relevant

 lessons?

shelley: simply because they don't know how to

shelley: or they don't want to

bob: inmy experience, those teachers are not simply a small minority. there are lots of

 teachers who are quite comfortable saying that relevance is not particularly

 important.

Nat: many don't like change

shelley: because they come from a different school of thought that there way is the

 only way

bob: ok, shelley. like me, you've been an educator for awhile. what do you think it is?

 can't do it or don't want to?

shelley: we just need to show them that ther is in fact a better way

bob: cycles us back to realationships, doesn't it?

bob: if i get into a power struggle with a colleague and show them all the brain

 research, etc... they are likely to resist. but...

Nat: i agree steve

Steve G.: I would agree with all of you. But it takes work.

Steve G.: And that's probably the elephant in the room in our school (and maybe a lot

 of schools)

shelley: but we can bring them in if we allow them to observe us and our kids

 excitement about learning

bob: i don't agree! (not trying to be controversial) but i think that "unmotivated"

 teachers are no different from "unmotivated" kids...

Nat: absolutely i agree

shelley: you know that may be true for the old die hards

shelley: but some, want to change things for the better, they just don't know how

 because they are in a rut

bob: teachers often present as unmotivated but if they saw that they could be more

 successful by developing skills etc (like relevance and relationships) they'd begin to

 see that they would enjoy their jobs more.,..

Nat: I see and hear the same things from my colleagues when we share new ideas or

 new strategies that we see from our studnets when they are confused or don't see

 relevancy

bob: just as kids need to believe they can be successful with effort and see that

 success feels good, teachers need to believe they can be successful and feel better

 about themselves

shelley: yes, and truthfully, most of them want too!!

bob: of course. we all want to succeed and feel successful.

bob: too many teachers are just overwhelmed and don't have a clue where to begin.

 (just like their students.)

Steve G.: I have to say wish more teachers would be "motivated" to do more, but I

 even see that side in myself. "Do I need to do the extra mile here or there?" The

 impulse is there.

shelley: you know how you feel when you come back from a workshop ...feeling

 motivated to try new things??

bob: steve, thanks for your candor. let me ask you, do you feel the same lack of

 motivation when you believe that your efforts will result in feeling good?

shelley: well, that's how to get teachers on board

bob: say more, shelley.

shelley: by them seeing your success and happiness, they are going to want ideas

 from you so that they can feel similarly

shelley: it becomes somewhat contagious

bob: steve, i suspect your "lack of motivation" stems from a belief that it doesn't make

 any difference. I'll bet that you are super-motivated when you think your effort

 matters. am i right or off base???

bob: so shelley, you are talking about modeling things?

Steve G.: I'm not saying that I don't feel motivated to help the kids learn. I do. I think

 it's there's the effort on the margin. I think I try to do a good job and do all that I

 can. But sometimes it probably falls short on occasion

Steve G.: You're definitely right Bob. When I think it really can make a difference,

 yeah

bob: well, i think most of us fall short on occasion. i know i do. that's not necessarily

 lack of motivation. that's human nature living with my shortcomings

shelley: yes but also when my kids are into lessons, all participating cooperatively and

 another teacher walks into the room,. they ask me, How come they are all engaged

 and the kids aren't going crazy

shelley: how come they are so involed

shelley: this is what i amtalking about

shelley: things such as this

bob: i think we're touching something big here, steve. as a former administrator, i

 wanted all my teachers to believe that their effort mattered. that's when they were

 energized.

bob: i think we're touching something big here, steve. as a former administrator, i

 wanted all my teachers to believe that their effort mattered. that's when they were

 energized.

shelley: Nothing is ever achieved without some kind of enthusiasm

bob: shelley, you're getting into something we talked about earlier today. i think many

 teachers can hear/learn things more easily from a colleague than an administrator.

 (same with kids teaching each other).

Steve G.: And really, maybe that's just a good day/bad day thing.

shelley: yes, i always appreciate things when they are said by another teacher

bob: sure, steve. some of it probably can be tossed aside as good day/bad day. but i

 stil think a lot will come down to feeling like the effort matters.

shelley: when it comes from an administrater, it can be taken differently

shelley: I know this is sometimes the case with me

bob: sure. there is a power differential when it's administrator and teacher. (funny,

 we all "get" this when we talk about teachers and admin...but it's the same with

 teachers and students!)

Nat: In my experience when it comes from a colleague depending on who you are,

 anamosity can emerge because there is not a positve relationship or mutual respect

 amongst colleagues

shelley: you know bob, sometimes I am teaching and a kid is just not getting it, and

 when another kid explains it in "Kid Language" the light bulb goes on

Steve G.: I do think what I do makes a difference. I think the same cannot be said for

 other colleagues though and it gets back to what we discussed a couple weeks ago.

 What if it's just you pushing to try to make things better. But no one else is

shelley: and then i just laugh and say, "Why didn't I just say it likje that?"

Nat: That happens in my classroom  -  but it is usually me explaining it for the kids in

 more friendly terms because my co-teacher is very old schooll and uses vocabulary

 the students just don't get.

bob: great (and unanswerable!) question steve. i think we each need to decide who

 we want to be and if we can be that in our current situation.

shelley: You can only change one person.... that is you......don't concern yourself

 with them right now.....Just do what yo think is right and best for you

bob: so this provides a decent seque into ch 9: realistic expectations.

shelley: They are only doing what is need satifying for them at that moment.......and

 when they finally see the spark or the light, that things can be better and nmore

 need satisfying doing it another way, then they will try something new or different

Steve G.: Definitely Bob (and shelley)

bob: do we put realistic expectations on ourselves? how do we maintain realistic

 expectations for kids, especially with high stakes testing and the standards craze?

Nat: I always tell my students I have high expectations for myself as well as for them

 and my goal for them is see them reach high above my expectations.

Steve G.: I'm a big believer in setting expectations and making kids stretch. It's the

 one way for them to learn. They don't really learn if they don't stretch and go

 beyond what they know

Nat: I tell them everyday how smart they are and how they can achieve anything - I

 make it absolutely clear "I believe in them" even when they don't believe in

 themselves.

shelley: yes Nat

bob: so...do they believe you?

shelley: so many times kids lose  sight of this simply because they are kids,,, so they

 do need to be reminded from time to time

bob: i see too many kids who feel overwhelmed by expectations they believe they

 can't meet.

Steve G.: Bob, I'd like to hear about that. I think there is fine line between pushing

 and too much. Where is that line?

shelley: we need to keep it real and accessable

bob: my belief is that kids will work hard whenthey see the relevance of the work and

 believe success is attainable. agree?

shelley: all of the time so they don't lose sight of things and become discouraged

Nat: Absolutely bob,

bob: that's why i make a big deal out of emphasizing "growth" as opposed to

 standards.

bob: i'm not sure every kid can meet the standards we set. but i am completely

 convinced that all kids can make growth.

shelley: yes bob,   However with the current grading system as we discussed earlier

 today, this is a challenge for us eduators

Nat: I agree, each of my students are different and expectations have to be tailored.

bob: if we emphasize continuos growth and movement towards a goal (rather than

 necessarily achieving it), kids can (and will) feel good about themselves and

 persevere.

shelley: we have to put things into perspective

Nat: What I mean is that I expect my spec. ed students to try to write a 4 paragraph

 essay, but when they give me 2 great paragraphs I build on that not discourage

shelley: YES!!

shelley: that is what we have to do

bob: shelley, i agree completely. maybe we should look at changing how we grade.

shelley: take it one step at a time

shelley: esp. with kids, because kids just are not abloe to think like adults

shelley: no kidding

shelley: If I was the one in charge of grading and decision making, things would be a

 lot different

bob: expecting a sped student to achieve to the same standard as their classmate

 may be setting the student up for failure....unless the standard is "growth"

shelley: but with this grading things, change is a process and it take s

 TTTIIIMMMEEE!!!

bob: the emphasis gets switched from "attainment" to "learning." not everyone can

 attain at the same level, but everyone can make gains toward.

Nat: Bob I agree and I am excited that our state is going to the growth model

shelley: Agree with you

shelley: but that is not we are being told to do for the most part

shelley: and we have to live within the system that they give us

shelley: we need to stay within their perameters

bob: nat, tell me more, please! what state? this sounds like something exciting!

Nat: Indiana and all I know is that we are looking for student growth on a more

 individual basis which allows us to focus on students needs - in our districts through

 data driven decision making in the form of data teams.

Steve G.: Steve G.: You know, I agree with all of you -- at least in terms of my

 approach -- but I worry sometimes that we're really afraid of kids "failing" 

Nat: I have done some research on the growth model and there has been  a lot of

 positive said, I am currently researching in more depth so I can assist my colleagues

 as we move to this model in the fall

Steve G.: failure is really what helps everybody learn. I'm not saying we discourage

 them but failure is ok, we should let them know.

bob: wow! that's very exciting. I did a big keynote thing in indianapolis in october and

 something else in january. i thought the state was not moving in such a positive

 direction. i'm very glad to hear this!

shelley: Steve, i do not agree with you

shelley: I do not learn best because I have failed

shelley: beg to differ with you

Steve G.: I don't mean in terms of grades.

Steve G.: I mean failing at task

bob: steve, i'm not advocating "failure," but i agree with you in large measure. it's ok

 to fail. the key is what we learn from mistakes. if we moved from failure as "failure"

 to failure as &quot††††††††††††††art of leatning," it's all good

Steve G.: I guess I worry about the fact that we're insulating the kids a bit. That's all.

shelley: failing does not help me learn and for the most part, it does not help my kids

 learn either

Nat: What do you mean by insulating the kids? 

Nat: I have to admit, I point out to my students my mistakes so they can see it is part

shelley: yes, it is ok to make mistakes

Steve G.: I guess it's like Michael Jordan's story.

shelley: that is different from learning from failure

bob: i don't think we can help kids learn to persevere (something I value) unless we

 have them experience bumps along the way. (That's "nice talk" for failing.)

Steve G.: He was cut from the team.

Steve G.: And that was the best thing that ever happened to him.

Nat: I think we have to teach kids that success takes a lot of effort and with effort

 comes failure sometimes we just need to use the failure to grow from of being human.

bob: great discussion everyone! looking forward to next week!

shelley: yes nat

shelley: i agree

Nat: bye everyone have a great weekend

shelley: ditto

bob: i do appreciate you making time and sharing your thoughts. please remember

 that you can add comments during the week at your leisure.

Steve G.: Thanks Bob.

bob: my pleasure.....later everyone.....enjoy....

Nat: I have to admit, I point out to my students my mistakes so they can see it is part

 of being human

I am excited to announce an online book study discussion group based on The Motivated Student: Unlocking the Enthusiasm for Learning.I hope you’ll join this professional learning community and encourage your colleagues to do the same.

The purpose is to discuss The Motivated Student and identify how to take positive advantage of the internal motivation students bring to school. If you’re satisfied with the number of students who work hard and regularly display the effort you want, then this group is not for you. On the other hand, if you wish more students worked harder and you’d like to develop strategies to engage and inspire more students, you’ll find this group professionally enriching.

Here’s how it will work: I’ll host a live online chat, following the schedule outlined below. The chat will give me an opportunity to introduce some key concepts from the chapters we are discussing and to initiate conversation. After each live chat, I’ll post some questions/topics for discussion on the “Inspiring Student Motivation” group wall on EDge so participants can share strategies, ask questions, and provide suggestions about how to foster internal motivation and academic success. Just go to http://edge.ascd.org/_Inspiring-Student-Motivation/group/110667/127586.html to get to the “Inspiring Student Motivation” wall.

Here is our schedule:

April 15: live chat from 7:00-8:00 PM Eastern time.
Topic: Chapters 1,2,3 of The Motivated Student

April 22: live chat from 7:00-8:00 PM Eastern time.
Topic: Chapters 4,5,6 of The Motivated Student

May 6: live chat from 7:00-8:00 PM Eastern time.
Topic: Chapters 7,8,9 of The Motivated Student

May 13: live chat from 7:00-8:00 PM Eastern time.
Topic: Chapters 10,11 of The Motivated Student

May 20: live chat from 7:00-8:00 PM Eastern time.
Topic: Chapters 12,13,14,15 of The Motivated Student

To order The Motivated Student visit: http://shop.ascd.org/productdisplay.cfm?productid=109028.

Get your copy today. I look forward to chatting with you on April 15!

Bob Sullo